Ringing... Just!

Today was meant to be a productive day of ringing, with a morning session at Colyford Common, and evening session whoosh netting on Seaton Marshes planned. The morning session was good fun, loads of biscuits, excellent company....but very few birds!!! Even Colyford Common's new monster feeding station surrounded by nets didn't do the trick...

A feeding station fit for Simon Wakely's garden!!

We only caught six birds, and five of them were already ringed! Star bird was this cutey...

Teal are always good value! This wasn't caught by the feeding station though!!!

I had a nice wander around Blackhole Marsh and Colyford Common whilst ringing here, a Green Sand, two Water and nine Rock Pipits were the highlights. The scenery was stunning as usual...

Full of lovely saline water again too!

The evening's ringing session was a bit more productive, as the whoosh net caught us nine birds. We extracted and sacked them up, before getting the ringing gear together...

Fraser looking just a little excited... we said Shelduck Frase - not Shoveler!

Then it was time to sort the birds out...

Doug playing 'find the Moorhen!'

There were in fact two Moorhens, time to apply the rings...

Look at those legs!

And here they are, an adult and a young'un...

Note the Shelduck in a sack in the back ground!

All of the seven Shelduck were already ringed, six males and a lady. Then it was home for dinner :-)

Have had little time out birding today, the estuary producing three adult Med Gulls. A pity the sun wasn't out though...

These will only be about for a couple more months

A look from Seaton Hole gave the Eider but little else, apart for the usual lovely view of the bay...

That's Axe Cliff in the distance

Lastly I must mentioned this; a juvenile Sedge Warbler that we ringed at Colyford Common on 27th August 2009 was re-captured ten days later (on 6th September) in Wales! The exact location being Uskmouth, Newport in Gwent, which is 91km from where it was ringed.....that's 91km IN THE WRONG DIRECTION!

Out With The Old, In With The New....

My new camera arrived yesterday afternoon, and this is it....

The Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ35. Cooooooooooooooool!

So today, I've been mostly playing about with it...and am very impressed! There are lots of different settings to get used to, but it is suprisingly easy to use as the menu is set out well. I still have a long way to go with it but here's a few shots I've taken today in varying light conditions, mostly on fairly 'tame' targets...

Common, but certainly NOT boring!

Common and definitely boring! But it has got part of its upper mandible missing!

The sun shining off the bird feeder is a bit of an issue in this one, still a nice clear picture though

A House Sparrow in the shade, this was taken at full zoom (18x)

So there we have it, my attempts at getting some bird pics with my new toy. I'm even more pleased (I am very easily pleased! Hahaha!) because these were all single shots. They are not the best of a mass of similar photos, each birdie had its photo taken just once. Why I hear you ask? Well that's because I've not got a memory card yet and the camera can't fit many top quality pics on its internal memory at all - just five in fact!

I did try taking a photo of a distant Med Gull floating down the estuary, wanted to see the range of this thing. It is too distant but still, it works well as a 'Where's Wally'...

I'll give you a clue, it's an adult...

And here's a few scenic photos from the Lumix....

The view from the farm gate early afternoon

The Axe Estuary looking lovely late this afternoon

Coronation Corner looked as it does every day at about 16:30...

That bench must have a slight indentation by now with the amount of use it's been getting of late!

Time to mention some birds that I've seen and not photographed today... Biggest news is of the continued presence of the Bewick's and Whooper Swan on patch. They are in a flock of Mute Swans just south of Musbury, to the east of the Boshill Cross to Axminster road (opposite the farm that advertises Cream Teas - trust me to notice that!!!)

Four Med Gulls is my total for today, three adults and a first-winter. A Lesser Redpoll over the front garden this morning was notable, I normally only get them over here during passage times.

Now for some (more) gaff, and this landed on the door mat this morning...

A must have! Although it is very similar to the first one, plus a few more species

And the other 'new' of the day is this blog....if you hadn't already noticed!!! I fancied a change, much easier on the eyes me thinks....

Impressive!

As I knew I would struggle with my spare bins, I took the liberty of putting a footnote on my letter to Swarovski which basically said "any chance of a loan pair of binos?"

At 8am this morning, Royal Mail dopped off a big box. In it was this...


And in that, were these...

Life savers!!!!

I've heard from others about the top quality customer service from this company, and I agree with everything that's been said to me. Brilliant!

'White 3N93'

Camille Duponcheel continues to prove HIMSELF as a very efficient MAN, as this morning I had all the details about yesterday's white colour-ringed Med '3N93'

Looking down through all 50 listed sightings it turns out she has visited us before...

White - 3N93 - 18/12/06 - Axe Estuary, Devon, GB. 50,37N 3,26W - Haig, Gavin

So I had a look back through the Backwater Birding thread on Birdforum, and on that day Gav posted this....

"Before the meeting I somehow managed a look at the estuary, where there were FOUR adult Med Gulls. Two were unringed (though one was definitely new), one had a shiny metal ring on the right leg (possibly same bird as 13th) and one had a white colour-ring, which read 3N93, and is either Belgian or Dutch (have sent off details and await reply). That was all around 13:10 - 13:30."

Then the following day, he posted this....

"The life history of the white-ringed Med Gull I had yesterday has already been emailed back to me (mega-quick!!). It was ringed in Belgium as a first year in July 1999. It is on its third colour-ring(!), and has been seen near the R. Severn four times during the intervening years (including Slimbridge), but this is its first recorded visit to the south coast. Fascinating stuff!"

Between my sighting yesterday, and Gav's in 2006 this bird has been reported 35 times!!

After the 2006 sighting she was next reported in Belguim on 17/03/07. Next stop was Holland, where she breed during the summer of 2007 and was watched feeding two chicks.

There's only one sighting for the winter of 07/08, and that was on 03/01/08 at a landfill site in Gloucester. She spent the following summer in Belguim but it doesn't state whether she bred or not. By August 2008 the guys in Gloucester had her back, she was last reported here on 09/10/08.

There was a gap in sightings from then, and wasn't seen until 28/07/09 when she was in Worcestershire. She was seen here again two days later, but after that, hasn't been reported until she made a return visit to the Axe yesterday.

It's amazing to think yesterday I was watching what I know was an 11 year old Med Gull, and just fantastic to find out the journeys that she has made. Long live 'White 3N93'!!!

Bye Bye Swarovskis...

I finally got round to sending my bins off for repair today. Hope they come back soon, cuz for now I've got to use these...

They cost me about £40!!

For their price they are okay, but as I'm so used to using Swarovskis I really REALLY struggled with them this afternoon. I nearly threw them out the car at least three times, and in the sea once!!!

Now to today's birdie news, and this morning a flooded Colyford Common/Marsh revealed two Green Sands and a drake Tufted Duck, the first one I've seen since the cold spell ended. A quick look at the sea afterwards showed 13 Common Scoters and ten Great Crested Grebes.

Later on in the day, I had a look through the Gulls. Six adult Med Gulls were nice to see, two of these bearing white colour-rings. One was old friend '3P65' (see Gav's blog for full details of his movements), but the other, a bird I don't think I've seen before '3N93'. Have reported the sighting and will post details of the bird when I get them...

There seems to be lots of Common Gulls about at moment, so I set about counting them. After a look on the sea at Seaton Hole, a sweep of the estuary, and a vigil from the farm gate 'til dark, I finished up with 277. Still no Ring-billed though....

Saturday is my next day off work, I hope to spend it trying out my new toy. Just hope it arrives in time...

The 'White One' Revisited...

Luckily my Monday night 'Iceland' has been re-found, and it's true identification, well...not sorted, but quite rightly questioned anyway!

In the water, it did look 'odd', but when it started wandering about, its size (noticeably smaller than all surrounding Herring Gulls) and shape (longish wings, very cute and soft headed appearance, shorter legs) comforted me that it was indeed a white second-winter Iceland. Although many books say "if it is pure white then it probably isn't a true white-winger", there are several photos on the net proving otherwise.

I thought an unusually long-billed Iceland was what it was, but it's looking more and more like it isn't... Anyway, I'm glad it is still with us, and hope more views of it will help us ascertain its true identity...

I haven't had an birding time lately due to work, but last night I ordered a new toy. As you will have read, my camera needed replacing, and the replacement is on its way.... Watch this space... (I'm VERY excited!!!!!)

Two Gulls From 'Up North'

I HATE not having a camera that works properly!!! ARGGGGHHHHHH!!!

This morning the Axe Estuary Ringing Group had an outing on Colyford Common. A nice selection of ducks first thing included three Mallard and four smart Teal - gorgeous ducks - even the ladies! For the 'macro' to work on my camera I need to zoom in a little bit - just by one notch. BUT cuz that's the button that is buggered, I couldn't take a single in focus photo of any of the birds! PANTS!

An obvious highlight seen during the ringing session was an Otter feeding in the northern corner of Blackhole Marsh - it gave cracking views! A couple of Water Pipits and four Green Sands also livened things up a little. It was nice to see some new faces helping us out today.

I was out again just after 14:00, a sweep of the estuary revealed just two adult Med Gulls. Afterwards a look at the sea gave eight Red-throated Divers, ten Great Crested Grebes, one Eider, six Common Scoters (four lovely drakes) and good numbers of Razorbills. At Beer a lone Black Redstart remains on the beach.

I returned home and after a couple of hours of odd jobs, went out for one last look.... was well worth it :-)

At 16:50, what looked like a small Polar Bear in with the gulls north of Coronation Corner turned out to be a second-winter Iceland Gull! It really was WHITE WHITE, which had me worried for a sec as albino/leucistic this or that entered my head... but when it came out of the water and started wandering about all doubts disappeared, my first Axe second-winter Iceland was waving at me - COOOOOOL! I wonder if it is one of last winters first-winters?

Ian Mc was the only one able to respond to my texts, he joined me for five minutes before we both had to leave. As my camera is busted (in case you didn't know!?) I didn't even bother trying to get a pici of it in the gloom, so instead went for a photo of the estuary north of Coronation Corner at 17:10 tonight...

No that's not a small Sun on the mud, but the Iceland Gull!

Another notable one just before I turned up the Ike was this third-winter argentatus Herring Gull. Amazingly this photo actually turned out only slightly worse than okay...

My first of this winter on patch; for most I know this is a YAWN.... but not for me :-)

Back to work tomorrow, something to look forward too........NOT!

Norfolk Trip - Day Four

We packed the car, and after breakfast headed out into the fog for the final stint of our four day trip.

First stop was Sheringham, to try again for the Purple Sandpiper for the trip list. Almost immediately after poking our heads over the sea wall, we could see the Purp feeding on rocks just below the Crown Inn. Excellent! Despite lots of large larids loafing about there was no sign of the Glonk.

We started heading south, with Whitlingham CP being our next destination near Norwich. We were here mid morning and scored with the trio we were hoping for - what an impressive place this is! The Red-necked Grebe was fishing towards the western corner of the Great Broad, and in the eastern section the redhead Smew was loafing about with large numbers of other wildfowl. The star performer though was the Great Northern Diver! It spent a good five minutes close in right in front of us resting and preening. Stunning views!

What a show off!

This is how close he was, I know he looks miles away in the pici...but he really wasn't!

After this we headed south to Chedgrave Marshes, our final destination of the holiday. We parked up in Waveney Forest and walked north east...which was a very stupid thing to do as we had to go north west! Still, Bun remains the biggest plank as he KNEW we were heading the wrong way but decided to stay schtum!!!

We eventually found a raised part on the edge of the forest, luckily the fog had cleared and visibility was ever-improving. Raptors were VERY impressive! Several Kestrels were hunting, a Peregrine came bolting through, a Barn Owl sat in the entrance to an old tin barn, up to four Marsh Harriers included one sat on a close bush for half an hour and two ringtail Hen Harriers were awesome. One of the Hen Harriers repeatedly hunted over a bit of reedbed adjacent to the edge of the forest we were standing in, unbelievable views! As we were under the cover of the trees I guess it just couldn't see us! The final raptor was the reason we were there...

After probably an hour of scanning there was no sign of the Rough-legged Buzzard we were after, but after some alarming Gulls, it suddenly appeared sat on a wooden fence, back on. After a short while, it flew a short distance and landed on another post. Unfortunately for us, the fog came in again at this point, quick and thick! It took off and flew away from us, before landing on much more distant post. This, along with the thickening fog, encouraged us to up and leave as we knew we wouldn't be getting any better views.

Also here, we saw up to six Bearded Tits (hearing several more) and it was great to see two Chinese Water Deer. With the fog in at 14:15 we left here and started the journey back to Seaton at 14:15, that was via a stop at this garage...

Bun's very own Service Station.... in fact the whole village was called Hales! There is also a place nearby called Bungay.... enough said!!

We also stopped at Fleet Services for some KFC, and were home for 20:15.

Well what a BRILLIANT trip we had, with the final species tally being 129 (and we didn't see Bittern, Greenshank, Brambling, any auks).

My bird of the trip, well, has to be the cracking pair of Shorelark, but the male Hen Harrier at Wareham Greens and the Titchwell Mealy were certainly mega highlights too. The vast flocks of Pinkies really float my boat as much as anything though, just awesome! What an amazing place....

Norfolk Trip - Day Three

Well we woke up and it was raining....

We thought we'd head south to Blackborough End Tip and have a look through some Gulls. We did that, we saw some Gulls, but nothing out of the ordinary! We also got quite wet! Plenty of Egyptian Geese about down here were all that was worth mentioning. Driving about though did give us our only Bullfinch of the trip and a Barn Owl.

Early afternoon, we were back on the north coast, and just as the rain stopped we pulled up into West Runton beach car park. An adult Med Gull which has apparently been around for a while here, was on the beach, but soon made its way up to the car park and onto its favourite perching post...

Bun and Karen enjoying what was a Norfolk tick for me!

On the sea were at least 22 Red-throated Divers with the first Gannets of the trip flying past. Stock Dove made its way onto the trip list here too.

We left here, and headed west. It was with impeccable timing that Bun's pager buzzed as we were passing through Beeston Regis with news of a first-winter Glaucous Gull and Purple Sandpiper at Sheringham. Later I learnt it was thanks to The Chill for that! Cheers :-)

We pulled up by the Crown Inn, and soon found the Glaucous Gull resting on the sea just to the east. What a stunning beast, a really well marked and dark individual. We looked and looked for the Purp, but to no avail.

Yummy!!!

After this, we finally saw the Black Brant on Wells-next-the-Sea Pitch and Putt Green, a stonking individual! Just a shame it was tipping down with rain again!

We finished up at Holkham again, lots of Geese including the Snow Goose again. A Grey Partridge gave some good views, three Barn Owls were quartering below the Church, but best of all, Karen spotted a Woodcock sat out in the open beside a small pool near to us - nice! It made the fact my camera was knackered even MORE annoying though...

Not too bad I suppose!

We retired, wet and bedraggled, to the B and B, and yet again the Bowling Green saw us through the evening, our final evening in fact.

(Click on 'newer post' for Day Four)

Norfolk Trip - Day Two

Thursday was another dull day, but after breakfast we were out, with Holme being a very productive first port of call.

This day though will always be remembered as the day my camera broke. During the day, the 'zoom in' button just stopped working, hence why all my photos from this day on become EVEN WORSE in quality!

Anyway, back to Holme, and walking across the golfcourse, a large flock of Fieldfares flew up, with a couple of Redwing and Song Thrush. On the beach, a flock of 71 Snow Buntings flew up and down the beach, only settling briefly, with another four and five flying in to join them from the east. Aside all the wader activity on the beach, the sea was where most of the action was happening.

16 Long-tailed Ducks looked specactular - especially the splendid drakes, ten Eider, six Common Scoter, several Goldeneye and Red-breasted Mergansers were the wildfowl on show. A Great Northern Diver was resting on the sea close in, with two Red-throated further out. A nice surprise was a Slavonian Grebe which flew close west, we later learnt it had been seen off Titchwell before it flew off from there at 10:15.

Next stop was our second visit to Titchwell. We scored with the things we dipped here the previous day, with the three redhead Smew showing to the west of the bank, but they remained distant - especially two of them. This is the best I could get...

Elusive blighters!

Twite was the other bird we managed to connect with, a distant flock feeding on the Brackish Marsh. There were up to 50 birds in the flock, but there were a few Linnets in there, so I'd guesstimate at about 40 Twite. It's a pity they stayed so distant though.

A Spotted Redshank over the bank was the only one we saw all trip, and a Water Pipit proved elusive during our visit offering only flight views. The sea showed a decent flock of 180 Common Scoters plus six Eider and the usual Goldeneye and Red-breasted Mergansers. Near the visitor centre the Mealy Redpoll was still present and two Water Rails showed superbly.

A scope view of the Freshwater Lagoon!

On our return to the vistors' centre, it was time to try a Tichwell bacon bap...WOW! Check this out...

There were TWELVE rashons of bacon inside it!!

We finished the day at Wareham Greens, the walk to and from the edge of the saltmarsh showed a couple of Grey Partridges, a Woodcock, and in a flock of c40Brent Geese were two lovely Pale-bellied, here's one of them...

I blame the broken camera :-(

Raptors included a Merlin, a Barn Owl, two Marsh Harriers, and three Hen Harriers. One distant ringtail came in from the east, a ringtail passed us close arriving from the west, and best of all, a STUNNING male gave a couple of really close fly pasts, he also came in from the west. Sensational views of a stunning bird! He certainly got 'bird of the day' award!

It was then back to the B and B, and another fine meal in The Bowling Green. The weather forecast didn't give us much hope for the following day, but you will have to read the next post to see how we got on....

(Click on 'newer post' for Day Three)

Norfolk Trip - Day One

As you can see, I didn't update the blog whilst up there, but now we're back I will tell each day as it happened. Hope you enjoy....

The team - Me (driver), Bun and Karen - left Seaton at 3am on Wednesday 20th, we passed through lots of rain, a bit of sleet, a possible snow flake or two, and arrived at Wolverton Triangle at 08:05, just as it was getting light. Perfect timing I'd say!

First thing I needed was a pee, as I stepped out of the car, a Crossbill broke out in an eruption of 'chups' above me before flying off, and as I was hiding behind a hedge to 'do the deed', a Lesser Redpoll did the same. It was a very worthwhile pee as this was the only time in the trip these two species were noted!

It took an hour of driving round 'The Triangle' (a pastime I'd rate at being less enjoyable than sticking pins in my eye) 'til Karen glimpsed a tail disappearing into the middle, we pulled up and glared in....three male Golden Pheasants! There was also a dark shape with them which was presumably a female. They disappeared deeper into cover, so we drove around to the other side, and eventually two (and briefly three) males came out onto the edge of the road feeding - excellent! The light was really dull, so photos for me weren't an option at all, but to show how colourful they are...

The dirty windscreen didn't help either! A truly PANTS photo

Worse than that photo is my video of them! Just soooo dull...

I know these 'dark-throated' guys get bad press - mostly from me - but they are stunning! Past hybridisation has been blamed for the dark throats, but looking at them, I see no other anomalies, so why is it not just a DNA cock-up in this small and isolated population?

It was then time to do some 'proper' birding. We headed to Snettisham, the first time I've ever been here! Getting out of the car, a Green Sand flew over, the only one of the trip so that was a bit of a jam! It's a bit of a walk to the beach, past all the small pools, larger lakes, and this big lagoon (most of which seemed to be littered with Goldeneye!)...

Looking west

We timed this visit well, as the tide was just edging out. Masses and MASSES of waders (mostly Knot) gave great aerial displays, with hundreds of Teal shuffling about on the mud. Further out more species of duck were dabbling on the water, and singles of Merlin and Peregrine were out looking for some late breakfast. All the time we were here, Pink-feet were going over, with many large flocks still resting on the mud in the distance.

The main reason we were here was to look for the two Shorelarks, and a trudge round the usual haunt drew a blank. We had earlier seen a flock of 26 Snow Buntings (which were flushed by the Merlin) fly east along the beach, so this is the way we walked.... Eventually we stumbled upon the Shorelarks, awesome birds!!! I only managed photos of one of them...

A 'lifer' for both Bun and Karen

Us relocating them went down well with other birders on scene, and soon 'Norfolk's finest' had gathered to enjoy these beauts....

Six nice people, and one not so nice person.... Goldfinches!????

Walking along the beach revealed a HUGE numbers of ex-birds, a dead seal pup and part of a porpoise! One of the ex-birds was this Pinkie....

'showing well!'

From here we headed to Titchwell. We knew a Mealy Redpoll was seen the previous day with the Goldfinch flock behind the visitors' centre. As we walked away from the centre Karen said 'there are the Goldfinches'... I pointed my scope up at the tree tops and immediately had the Mealy staring down at me, which was lucky!

I know a lot of people will be going 'Mealy....yawn!', but this this one was a STONKER! He really was an Arctic-wannabe, huge great wing bars, white tram lines, nice white underparts, a stunning bird! You can kind of see some of these features on my poor photo of him, just....

Nothing like a gingery Lesser, far from it! We were so impressed he almost got 'bird of the day'

Wandering out along the bank, Bearded Tits 'pinged' away but remained invisible, a Cetti's Warbler called briefly, at least three Marsh Harriers were the first of our trip and 15 Ruff and a few Avocet were the best in with the waders. We dipped a few things, which meant a return visit was necessary...

We continued east along the A149, but hadn't gone far when a road-side flock of Pinkies encouraged me to pull over for a scan. Singles of White-fronted and Barnacle Geese made this a worthwhile move.

We carried on to Wells, and pulled in at the Boating Lake where a pair of Scaup had been present. The light was really dull by now, but they still looked cracking - especially the male, probably one of my favouite ducks...

Apologies again for the consistently crap photography quality, trust me, it gets worse...

We headed back west a little to see the Geese come in at Holkham. I enjoy viewing them from the entrance to the church along the A149, so this is where we went. 180+ White-fronted and one Barnacle were amongst the thousands and THOUSANDS of Pinkies already on the marsh, and the wintering Snow Goose flew in soon enough with a massive skein of Pinkies from the west, and when it landed shone out like a beacon!!! Our first Barn Owl and only Marsh Tit of the trip were seen here.

Darkness had fallen, so we made our way to our B and B, The Cobblers, in Wells-next-the-sea. For the second year in a row it provided very comfortable, friendly and birder-friendly accommodation, I recommend it to anyone and everyone.

We unpacked, then headed to The Bowling Green Inn, where Bun was dying to get his teeth into their Vegetarian Quiche once more!!

We were sooo tired so hit our beds by 8:30, but still eager to get up and get out in the field again the next morning...

(Click on 'newer post' for Day Two)

Bye bye...

Early tomorrow, three Backwater Birders (Bun, Karen and I) will be loading up my car and heading to Norfolk for three nights.... am well looking forward to it!!! :-)

But before I'm off, here's what I've seen on patch over the past couple of days. It isn't much at all!!

Star bird has been this adult Spoonbill, which was showing north of Coronation Corner late this afternoon...

Not sleeping for a change!

Also on the estuary, two adult Med Gulls, a good count of 103 Common Gulls and another HerringXLesser Black-backed hybrid-type thingy! A Golden Plover was amongst a big flock of Lapwing near Boshill Cross (opposite Axmouth FC).

A quick look over the sea from Beer mid morning showed birds were REALLY on the move! Ten Brent Geese and seven Common Scoter flew east, and five Red-throated Divers and two auk sp. flew west. This was only in about five minutes! A Black Redstart was flitting about on the beach besides me.

The Woodlarks are still present near Axmouth, I saw them here a couple of days ago.

And that's that.... I shall try and update whilst away, but if not, you can read about it all on my return...

A World Premiere!

With little time for birding over the past two days, it's time to publish the post I have been threatening some of the local birders with...

Lurking in a dusty box in the corner of my bedroom is this...

Produced in 1997!

A local musician worked with the local schools to produce this video. In 1997, I was in my last year at Seaton Primary School, so was part of this project. We put on a performance in Kilmington, which was filmed for the video. I have just watched it for the first time in years, here's a few shots of the star of the show...

Aren't I cute.....what went wrong??!

To go with the music for the video, we were also filmed during an outing to the Estuary...

Me again, and Coronation Corner in 1997! Little did I know I'd find a Bonaparte's Gull from roughly the same spot ten years later!!!

But the whole entire point of this post, is this....

The camera man returned to the Estuary alone to film the scenery and birds. For the video he got some nice footage of Black-headed Gulls, Wigeon. And these....

The Axe 1997 Smew!

I actually remember them quite well, as they tried to feed in the ice-free patches of the Estuary. There were several Goosanders around at the same time too, I recall seeing about six hauled up on the mud north of Coronation Corner. If I remember rightly the Smew stayed for about a week. It was just total luck that the camera man for 'The sounds of the River Axe' visited the Estuary when they were here.

I tried to film the video playing on my telly...it didn't really work at all! But here it is anyway....

IF YOU SUFFER FROM EPILEPSY DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO CLIP!!!!

Hope to get some birding in tomorrow morning, and I have a good feeling about it too....